Post No. 24 - Winding Up Phase I

Reporting for Roll Call:16:30 Hrs

Hi LT:

I concur with your conclusion. We've covered about all that can be covered for this Phase. I hope our "excercise" proves useful not only for our Cherry Troop, but to anyone else who may or may not have realized that they too might discover some things of value for their situations. Hope my sometimes "hardass" commentaries haven't been too distracting during this dialogue. Old "centurion" habits don't go away...they just keep grinding on...aiming for the jugular. Hah!

Re: Visible versus Invisible Wounds: You're right about the physical ones. The process is relatively cut and dried. About the only thing that may be open to any discussion about these, given all the medical technological advances that have been made since our times of service... is...how will these affect "disability" determinations for such physical wounds in the future? But that's for another area of discussion at another time.

As to those "invisible" wounds, whether PTSD, or having been exposed to any kind of toxins of one kind or another, you are quite correct. Obviously, only those who have been field grunts (rather than REMFs),involved in multiple deployments into all sorts of weird field situations, not to mention direct combat ones, have any basis for any possible claims for "disability" because of those situations and exposures. As an example, whether someone was involved in tactical operations and combat, or, just driving supply trucks, humvees, etc. and getting blasted by IEDs, or field medics,doctors and nurses who, day after day had to deal with trying to patch up and save casualties brought to them (in some way perhaps having a stronger cumulative impact than anything else), there are undoubtedly similar mental health impacts, particularly if the service members involved had to endure such things over extend periods of time.

Granted, the severity of mental health impacts vary from individual to individual. It's not a one-size-fits-all thing. This may be where the current system has great difficulties coping with that. They simply haven't yet figured out how to effectively work on a case by case basis, because everything has been designed and organized for a "collective" approach. No question about it...it's a bitrch of a problem.  Which is where your rules about getting all records possible together are right on target. I might add, it isn't only individual records, etc., but also any specific unit field reports related to either actions, or incidents, which can add further support to a service member's filng a claim.

Well, this is as far as we can go with the subject right now. Meanwhile, you deserve a "medal" for what you've done here LT, but since that's way beyond my current pay grade these days...the beer and burgers are on me...the next time we rally at Sinbads or. at your Stalag Cluckenspiel.

CENTURION    

Post No. 23 - Things Are What They Are

Reporting for Roll Call- 17:35Hrs - 7-10-13

Hi LT:

Re: Post No. 22. Addy typo delayed this one. Re-posting it to complete sequence of discussion so far.

Re: Info and Records. Your comments on my post No. 21 shows we're both singing the same tune, but, I seem to be in a different Key. Yes, things are what they are, and we have to deal with them that way, but everything you mentioned simply highlights the points I was trying to make. While we have to work with what we have, there's no reason we shouldn't consider how what we have could be improved upon. Well, it's nice to know there's a Freedom of Information Office, at VA facilities. At least our Cherry Troop now has some kind of pry-bar to use for what he needs as regards getting records, including whatever his doctor(s)are reporting about him. Even so, everything you've mentioned so far puts the spotlight on and illuminates the -why- there is such a dismal amount of delay and obstruction in the process. Everyone goes ape hearing about the millions in backlogged cases, and wondering why it's so. What we've shown here so far, LT, is part of the answer...they keep using BandAid patches to "fix" things. C'est la vie!

Re: Well, now that our Cherry Troop has his act together, etc..what happens next?If there is a basis for filing a claim, what must he do?

Centurion

Post No. 22 - A Brief Fall Back and Regrouping

Reporting for Roll Call :16:50 Hrs 7-8-13

Hi LT:

Re: My Post No 21. I was expounding on the problem of how as a veteran, the system made getting copies of one's service record and related medical records difficult, to say the least. To repeat my position on that...a) A service member should be given these automatically as part of his/her discharge process. Perhaps on a disk, if a paper form is too much trouble for the Services to do. If that were routinely done, much of the delays and problems we've been talking about...would disappear. I see no valid reason why that can't be done. None. b) If it's a mattter of CYA for the Services, a simple "receipt" form signed by the service member being discharged, would take care of that. Once the service member personally took over those copies of his records, it would his responsibility for keeping these secure. It would be a relatively easy thing for the Services to do...K.I.S.S. c)To further secure those records, they could only be "copied" or otherwise downloaded, to another computer if the veteran involved allowed it, using a pin number or password. For example, if he wanted to give these to his PC doctor, he'd have to be physically present in that doctor's office, to type in the pin or password needed, to download those files, and these would be "read only" on the doctor's machine...they could not be transfered, printed out, or otherwise made accessible to anyone else....again...without the veteran's ok. Something along these lines  and they already exist with other applications.Well neither of us are "experts" in that stuff, but there are enough hi-tech hotshots around able to create such a system for this purpose. To summarize, one way or the other, any veteran should be able to get his service records and related medical records without a lot of procedural BS and admin. roadblocks. They're his, after all.

Re: Initiating a claim process. Okay, our Cherry Troop has done everything we've both laid out so far. He has his act together, his documentary "ammo" etc., and he' ready to lock and load. What happens now. Couple of key questions here:

1) Who initiates the action? Through his PC doctor? Or elswhere?

2) Is it the same process for either physical or mental problems, or do these require separate approaches?

3) Once whatever "paperwork" has been prepared for filing that claim...where does it go..that is...what part of the VA gets it?

Centurion 

Post No. 21 - A Classic Case of Instituional Obstructionism

Reporting for Roll Call:14:35Hrs 7-5-13

Hi LT:

Thanks, quiet, and a laid back one.

Re: Getting records. Your comment on my Post No. 20 is enlightening. You are quite right. Getting access to and copies of your service record and medical records has barely improved since my times. The VA site you mention is okay as far as that goes, but it really doesn't do much to "improve" the process. In my view, this where BOTH the armed services and the VA display what I consider institutional obstructionism. There really is no valid excuse for it. Let's be blunt here...handing over a complete file of a service member's service record, and related medical file while in service, to a departing service member should be a routine part of the discharging process, not something he has to do after the fact. This is a  key failure directly chargeable to the Services. That failure  thus forces a discharged veteran to then have to go through the VA's procedures to try and get these. If I recall correctly aren't these forms for that purpose, 88 or 89... for the veteran's "authorization" to the services Records Center (St. Louis) to release these to the VA...or some such? At one point, I tried to get my service records directly, and had to flll out forms,,,just to get them released to me, never mind anyone else! Worse yet...they were incomplete...most of my enlisted period was missing (which they blamed on that big fire of theirs).Which isn't quite true, most of those "fire destroyed" files were archived and burried in a mountain cave storage somewhere, but since these had never been microfiched, the sheer volume of them to physically search to retrieve them would be too long and costly..

Well, it seems to me this is one issue about the system that needs some serious correction, and every veteran, every veterans group, etc. should be raising hell to make it so. Maybe if everyone started pounding on the JCS, and the Sec VA...it could happen, especially if there were a concurrent pounding going on at the Chairman of the House Ways Means Committee, and the House Armed Services Committee (from which the Services get their appropriations). Our classic panzer double pincer movement. Hah! That could make it all happen in double time.

Re: Maybe this all calls for another "rule" here (No.7?). That is: From the very first moment, build your own record file. Make copies of any and all types of communications with either the VA or the Services, including any attachments, enclosures, whatever. And whatever verbal responses you get to any questions you ask, from anyone, request confirmation of that in writing/email or what have you. Better yet, take notes, and if they don't  or won't give things to you in writing, write your own record/memo of it, then send them a copy with a nice polite cover note asking:"Is this my correct understanding of our conversation?" The key points here are: a) Bureaucracies tend to magically "eat" paper files, then call them "lost". b) No bureaucratic verbal word about anything can be trusted to be true. Get it in writing, one way or the other.

If this seems too cynical and over the top...I speak from long experience with all sorts of bureaucratic beasts, whether, military, government, or civilian.. it's common to all their natures. That's the reality of things. Once our Cherry Troop understands that, "maneuvering" through their respective procedural minefields becomes easier and less stressful,The trick is to learn how to keep one's cool, smile a lot, and how and when to slip an ITG (Improvised Textual Grenade) into their shorts.

CENTURION

Post No. 20 - Getting His Act Together

Reporting for RollCall ; 15:40 Hrs 7-3-13

Hi LT:

Short one for today. First off...have a great 4th of July! For the occasion, I'll be playing my favorite track from your album - Voice of America...."Hello, America, do you remember me? We're the ones who fought the war every night...on your TV" But why nitpick. God Bless America, land that we love....

Re: Making sure our Cherry Troop has his act together. Your comment in answer to my post No. 19 is a bit confusing. That is, your saying that before he does any of all those steps we've laid out so far, he should sit down and note down all the events of his service, particularly all those incidents where he went through anything remotely resembling "trauma" of one kind or another. Sure, all of us could reasonably do that, but just because we assemble that record ourselves, the question is...how much weight will our Cherry Troop's own produced narrative have with a beady-eyed clerk/bureaucrat who might  review it? Not much I'm thinking. Seems to me our Troop should have official copies of his  service record and medical record in his hands before he even heads for the VA to get his card. Suspect those records are the only ones that will count in any disability claims process. Which leads me to this question. How and when does he get those records? So, if I understand things correctly here the suggested prep work for getting his act together should be as follows:

1)Besides your DD214, have copies of both your Service Record, and you Medical Record while in service, in your hot little hands. Bettter yet, make extra copies of all of them so you will always have one complete set in your posession, if you have to use those other copies to backup whatever you may need for an eventuality of a disability claim.

2)Head for the nearest VA and get your VA Card.

3)Get your assigned primary care doctor, and make that first appointment with him.

4)Meanwhile, connect with an Advocate to help you maneuver through whatever process you need to go through.

5)Meet your PC doctor, give him copy of your records, and ask for all those examinations and tests previously outlined.

Is this more or less what you have in mind, for getting our Cherry Troop's act together?

Re: Categories of Wounds: You know my views about that. A wound is a wound is a wound. Period. The only difference is how physical and emotional wounds are handled. The physical ones are self-evident, and handling these is almost  a cut and dry matter. The emotional ones are different because they are not self-evident, and,more often than not dormant ( much like a volcano, which can errupt at some unknown time almost impossible to forecast). This is probably why there is so much difficulty in figuring how to deal with these. This is where that first Mental Health Examination becomes a critical factor in the process we've been discussing to date.

Well, let's keep on keeping on....meanwhile...it's the Fourth of July....I'm heading for a shot of Cognac!

CENTURION

Post No. 19 - Reflecting On What Was As We Conside What Is...Todayr

Reporting for Roll Call: 15:35Hrs - 7-1-13

Hi LT:

Re: Coming home. Much like you, a lot of us who came back from Korea, found ourselves in a completely indifferent world. You landed at Travis on a moonless night, with no one else there waiting for you. I landed at McCord AFB, near Seattle,in an icy grey dawn, after a rather weird transpacific flight routed through Chemnya, Anchorage, and finally Seattle. Of course, I wasn't getting out, just being re-assigned to a new posting. Generous as always, aster almost three years overseas, the Army gave me 10 days leave to find my way back to the East Coast and return ,to report for a cycle of DI duty at Ft.Ord.  CA. Standing there in that dawn's early light, in threadbare fatigues, with a bulging duffel, an M1 slung on my shoulder, a 45 on my hip, and helmet, the only thing I could think of was...where can I get a goddam hot cup of coffee, followed by...where the hell am I...and where do I go from here.?

The only other human around, was another poor bastard in the same pathetic gear, who could have passed for my twin brother. We'd been seat neighbors on the flight. The only two on board who weren't on stretchers. How we were ever booked on that MedEvac flight from Tokyo, is a mystery to this day. So there we stood like two tall lonesome pines, in total blank state of mind, until a AF MP jeep came roaring up, with the lone driver of it saying...what the F...are you guys doing out here on the tarmack? You're supposed to report to the Ops Center. Get your asses in this buggy...like now! (Welcome home...dumbasses!). That was our homecoming parade. I  only mention all this LT because we weren't unique. Same with you kids home from Nam. You could multiply such little scenarios by the hundreds of thousands, every day. That's the way it was...not because of any real indifference by the folks here at home, but because both those wars, really didn't have much of a direct impact on the rest of the country...busy with catching and making out with the "good life". We bands of brothers were simply casual "litter" cluttering up the streets.Neither those two conf licts, nor those of Iraq and Afghanistan, really meant anything to the country as a whole (Not lke WWII). As for the Services, they were busy with various fire fights, those of us no longer involved...didn't compute. While our "experience" had some parallels, as I said, you were getting out...I lingered on for another seven years.

For me, by then, the VA wasn't anything more than some kind of vague outfit which could be a source of "benefits" of some kind or another. Meanwhile, I was busy, trying to figure out what an ex-armored unit commander could do as a civilian. Not much demand in civilian world for one of those...Al Capone was dead, and Brinks wasn't hiring. Briefly toyed with joining the MD State Police, or maybe manhandling bulldozers (they're tracked critters, right?). But now with a growing family to support, neither option seemed to fit. But good old Uncle said...hey...hang on there...work for me...pays better...perks better....and...your military experience is just what we need, and, as a bonus, the time you work for me can be combined with it, towards your 20 for retirement purposes. Meanwhile, we're trying to train a bunch of folks over there in a Kingdom called .... Laos .....attaboy....sign right there......and the rest of that tune lasted for another 8 1/2  years.

But this pattern fits a whole bunch of guys(and gals). As I previously mentioned...the Armed Forces are the Armed Forces....and the VA is the VA. For most of us they're just two different worlds with only a very, very vague connection. As for "benefits" much depends on how these are defined...and by whom. Education, VA Home Loan guarantees, medical, etc. But, each category appears to have specific time limits, and, apparently, maybe some financial means tests as well. What this means is...every individual veteran, besides doing all those things we've mentioned so far, also needs to check and see just exactly what other kinds of "benefits" ae available.

Well, enough of all this generic stuff. Reflecting on what was, has some valure, but, we need to consider what...is...today.

Re: Disability Claims process. So our Cherry Troop, having followed all the steps, all the rules mentioned so far, now comes to a point where he needs to file a disability benefit claim. How does it start? But, before we go further, I think it's important we make a distinction here between, normal medical care and treatment services, which his VA Card allows him to get from it, and, any claim for "disability". They are two separate things. Care and services are what you get, regardles. What priority of service you get, and what you may have to co-pay for some of that, depends on your VA Card Category. As far as "disability". that's the big fork in the road, so to speak.

Okay, how and where does it begin, LT? Have to think, our Cherry Troop's primary care doctor, must be the first link in that chain. What's involved? since we're dealing with bureaucracy here, and going through a bureaucratic exercise ...forms....blessed forms...are your entry tickets to the process. What are they? Who gets them? Break it down for us, please.

CENTURION

Post No. 17 - VA Not The Enemy

Reporting for Roll Call -=15:05Hrs - 6-26-13

Hi LT:

Will attempt to catch up today. Missed Mon. due to one of those nuisance cold bugs which had settled in my upper bronchial area. So...not AWOL....just short time out for SICK CALL.

Re: Your Rule #5 - The VA is not the enemy(even if it just often feels that way!) On the whole I'll go along with that, but, it still has a long way to go before we can say it is  "outcome" oriented...instead of fixated on "crocheting" procedudres.That's not to say it isn't filled with dedicated and well-meaning people, many fellow veterans, but they're constrained in their desire to help and do the right thing, by a "legalistic" set of rules and regulations... which can be squarely laid back at...Congress' door...not the VA's. Of course there's the other, and inherent, factor related to the nature of any bureaucracy which, over time...tends to fossilize its SOPs.

But that's the way things are, so, whatever we do on this -front end- to help others learn how to maneuver successully through the complexities imposed by the "system", is good. Our analogy of it being like a mine field, and we're just trying to perceive and avoid the mines as we go through it...is as apt as it gets. Yet we should not also overlook any opportunities or means to pressure Congress about such things. I'll be blunt here...it is always ready and willing to send our troops into harms way, but, when it comes time to pay the butcher's bill for such military forays...it's very reluctant to honor those obligations. And it's that reluctance by Congress which drives how the VA deals with claims,etc. In my view, every parent, spouse, or any other relative or citizen, who has, or knows, someone serving our country should be pounding and their Representatives and Senators doors demanding their support to make things right...so we don't have the kinds of backlogs and delays like we have today. I would also think that every veterans organization should be out there screaming bloody hell too. Hmm...how many do you think really are doing that? Good question. Like we've said before...everyone supports our troops...till they have the gall to come marching home(even if they're gimping along)...instead of in a flag-draped box. It's nice to know we've all served such a grateful nation.

Such a viewpoint probably makes me into a full-blown "heretic". So be it! Let them prove me wrong by what they do..not what they say (like I've said, I'm from Missouri...so I'll believe them only when they have...shown us).

Re: A soldier's last words. Truly sad, sad, sad. The worse part about it is... he's not a lone case. He was obiviously very conflicted about some of the things he was forced to participate in. All that on top of his physical wounds...is as horrendous as it gets. The most gut-wrenching part of his letter is the way he feels  that his physical and emotional miseries are his fault, and how, his suicide, will leave both his family and the world...better off. Even more appalling is the apparent calm and rational tone of how he analyzed his situation to come to his conclusion. It was not just because of desparation...it sounds like he had convinced himself that self-sacrifice was the only honorable thing left for him to do under such circumstances. It speaks volumes about the real character of most of our service members. Truly, the pride of our country. They deserve mcuh better than this.

Re: Okay...back to our Cherry Troop...what we've shown him so far is...don't expect someone else to take the initiative and give you the information you need. You have to get it yourself. To summarize, right at discharge, go get that VA card, ask for a primary care physician, make and keep that first appointment with him/her. Here's the key at this point:

a)Ask for a referral for a complete Mental Health evaluation,

b)Concurrently, request a complete head to toe physical, so there is an immediate record of your combined physcal and emotional existing condition.

c)If you were on the ground where there was any use of Agent Orange, Depleted Uranium, or other toxins, request the right set of blood tests for any of these. If you were exposed, those tests will show it. Keep in mind, it's not about how, or when...but that you were...exposed...and those test will either support that or not. This is important because, their effects are not always early...but develope later on....sometimes much later..those test results will be difficult to ignore or discount...when the need arises.

Okay, LT...am I more or less on target with that summary? Hope so, because I'm really interested now in getting into what supporting documentation  is necessary, and how that's gotten together.

Have to break off for today...some of that medicine is making me go see a dog about a fire hydrant.

CENTURION